[PODCAST] Listen or Read: The Ethics of AI in K12
In this podcast Wilson Tsu, founder of PowerNotes, dives deep with Larry Jacobs of Education Talk Radio into the transformative role of AI in education in the K12 space. The discussion is focused on how the PowerNotes platform is designed to empower students and educators alike in research and teaching processes.
Wilson reveals how PowerNotes not only streamlines research for students but also aids professors in organizing their subject matter effectively. The conversation sheds light on the potential challenges of adapting to AI-driven tools in education, but ultimately highlights the tremendous benefits in terms of efficiency, improved teaching methods, and the limitless possibilities AI brings to the world of learning.
Join us as we explore how AI can be safely and thoughtfully implemented in K12!
Larry:
Happy Monday everybody. My name's Larry Jacobs. This is pre-K 12 Education Talk Radio, and it is the 16th of October, 2023. Thanks for being with us today. I'll shut down the music and we'll get our show started. Today. We've got a nice conversation with Wilson Tsu. Wilson, I hope I pronounced your last name properly. Okay. T s u. Wilson is the president and founder of PowerNotes. This is an interesting company, we'll learn about it, but we're going to get into the AI side. PowerNotes is the only tool scientifically designed to help students and professionals create high quality research confidently and efficiently. Well, that is what it says over on the website, but I'll let Wilson explain it more in detail and he'll do a better job than I just did. But what's happening is Wilson has created a company and a darn good one that uses AI to help with research, okay?
Helps students and incredibly, and I, if I can find it here today, what did I say? Oh, yeah. Today, PowerNotes is being used by children and adults. I love this. Across all levels of their writing and research journey. Here's my favorite part, from fourth graders, (fourth graders!) just grasping the concept of research to veteran researchers with PhDs and working professionals. So we wanted to talk to Wilson about AI, what he sees as the future, how all this comes together, how it changes research, and what our expectations of students. So it's going to be a nice conversation with Mr. Tsu, and we will talk with him in just a few seconds. We're going to archive the show at ace-ed.org, ace-ed.org, and that's our home website, of course, for our American Consortium for Equity in Education. You go over there, everything's free over there at ace-ed.org. All the podcasts that we've done over there, of which there are many, our magazine equity and access new issue up on site, just click on the cover, our Excellence in Equity Awards program. We swing into a new phase, we just finished the industry side, now we're starting the educator side, and it's going to be the opportunity for you folks to nominate your colleagues yourselves, your school, et cetera, et cetera, faculty and staff who are working every day for equity in pre-K 12. So check it all out at ace-ed.org. And without further ado, let me bring on Wilson, there we go. Wilson, you're there. It's Larry here.
Wilson:
I am, Larry. How are you?
Larry:
I'm fine my friend. How did I do in your last name? T S U. Pronounce it for me perfectly.
Wilson:
You got it right.
Larry:
Tsu, is that good?
Wilson:
Yep, that's right.
Larry:
Yep. Perfect. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you, Wilson. Okay, I appreciate that. Okay, well, I always like to get it right. I want you to brag a little bit, President and founder of PowerNotes. Tell us about your company, brag!, and remember you're talking to teachers, pre-K 12 and administrators, et cetera, et cetera. Brag a bit. Tell us about it.
Wilson:
Alright. I don't know if I'm much for bragging, but I'll tell you about it. So our company...
Larry:
Alright, let me change the question -- in all modesty, tell us about PowerNotes.
Wilson:
Thanks, Larry. So our company is a company that's really based on something that I found really frustrating when I started doing researcher writing, particularly with digital content. And so I didn't find a good process for how to save, organize, track all my information. And so really built not just a product, but more of a platform to help researchers, students, even faculty, create a process for themselves that's efficient, effective, and hopefully less frustrating for everyone. So research and writing isn't always the most exciting topic for most students, but it doesn't have to be as hard and frustrating as it currently is. And so what we did was even before AI is really try to put together a process where students can save, organize, and track all their digital content, cite it, reorganize it, turning it into writing, and then actually start writing. And then that's what we started with. And so we built that for researchers as the end user. Then we added and started working with faculty members, added a layer where faculty members can have visibility into the process. And that was,
Larry:
At that point you were thinking of higher ed, if I'm not mistaken, right?
Wilson:
Yes, that's right. We started out in higher ed, faculty don't get to usually see how students do their research. Students just do it off at 2:00 AM or whenever they're doing it. And if they're doing it correctly, that's great. If not, then that's a lot of rework when you get to a major milestone, like a first draft or an outline. And that's really frustrating for everyone. So now faculty with PowerNotes can jump in at any point during the process, review what students are doing, give them formative feedback, students can adjust on the fly. And then so when you do get that major milestone, big piece of assignment turned in, then it's more likely that they're going to have done it correctly. And so that's kind of how we started out. Then we kind of added that AI layer on top of it when AI became a big thing.
Larry:
Yeah, still is! Heh heh
Wilson:
Yeah, yeah.
Larry:
Carry on
Wilson:
And we're doing it in a way that really kind of blends in with what we're trying to do originally. So we're not trying to change our company drastically because of AI. What we're doing is just incorporating AI into our process so that all of the kind of AI that you're doing as a student or a faculty member trying to introduce AI to their students in class, all of that AI is now transparent to faculty with the whole point of they can provide feedback whether their prompts are good. I mean, I'll tell you right now, the first couple of classes we ran, and faculty didn't know this, but most students' prompts were, write me a paper on blah. And that's not a very good prompt. And so you need to use the AI to your advantage if you want to use it. And there are certain ways to do it because there are definitely things that the AI is very bad at and we want to try to avoid those things. We do a lot of things in powering us, try to minimize those things like hallucinations. Sometimes the AI can make stuff up out of the blue.
Larry:
The AI form of that, not hallucinations that are mental,
Wilson:
Right? That's right.
Larry:
Just want everybody to understand.
Wilson:
So what we're really trying to do is give faculty members the freedom and the comfort level they need to bring AI into their classroom, start experimenting. Because one of the things that is very apparent to us in talking with a lot of our partner schools is that they see AI as part of the future of education and writing.
Larry:
Oh it is, yeah, it is.
Wilson:
There can be a lot of advantages for students, especially when it comes to equity and leveling playing field and all that sort of stuff. And so one of the things they want to be able to do is understand how students are using it. It's quite frankly, an experiment for everyone. Everyone is learning how to use AI right now. Students probably have a little easier time picking it up
Larry:
Yes, heh heh.
Wilson:
Students of a certain age, and then faculty are now catching up. But students, I mean, we talk to a ton of students. I talk to a ton of students every year, and this year almost every single student that I've talked to has used AI or ChatGPT. So it's definitely something that I think schools and faculty need to address, but they didn't know how to do it. They didn't know how to bring it in without just introducing a cheating tool to students. And so we think we're trying to do something unique.
Larry:
Yeah, it's not that, actually that comment you just made, it struck me as very funny. What a world we live in that the professors are way behind the students. It's something that's going to basically change everything. You think about that and it is just
Wilson:
Yeah.
Larry:
an astonishing statement. Alright. And you're right, by the way, I do agree with you, and it's the same thing. People are, a lot of professors, a lot of the term educators are scared or were scared or are scared of AI. And as a powerful research tool, you mean you're getting degree in neuroscience, it's great. But then I read on your website, okay, this was in the column you were on there that the fourth graders are even using it.
Wilson:
Yep.
Larry:
And talk to me about how you see this working in K 12. I want to get into the ethics of it and all that sort of thing in a minute, but just talk about how you'd see AI PowerNotes, however you want to say it. Okay. In K 12, by the way, as the kids teach the teachers, how do you see the kids teaching the teachers how to use AI? Go ahead.
Wilson:
Yeah, so I mean obviously I think it, it's relevant In high school, that's where I started doing research and writing papers to a significant level with some real kind of meat on it. And obviously a lot of high school teachers are getting their students ready for some sort of college education where they're going to be writing more significant papers. And so that's where we really see a lot of students maybe using AI inappropriately, trying to take shortcuts, having the AI write a significant portion of one of their assignments of the high school teacher not knowing about it, maybe having suspicions, but not really being able to prove anything other than it's written a certain way. And so that's where I think it makes a lot of sense to use PowerNotes. Even before AI, we've always had high school teachers and administrators reach out to us to use PowerNotes.
We've always provided to them on a one-off basis. We don't have the kind of resources right now to really market to the K 12 space. So we probably have a dozen or a little more than that high schools using PowerNotes that come to us. They come to us and they ask us to use PowerNotes. So we even have a couple of foreign high schools using us as well, American schools in foreign countries. And so they again, use us to help them prep their students for college level writing, having a way to keep all their information organized. So I want to take a step back for a second just to talk about my own research and writing experience. And one of the things, and this is I'm an older kind of person, so I did my undergrad back in the early nineties when everything was,
Larry:
You're ancient. My God, you're ancient. And by the way, I'm talking, I'm a bit older than you. I'm talking to you from a sarcophagus today in Egypt. So don't worry. I'm wrapped cloth.
Wilson:
For most startup founders that I know, I'm up there in age compared to them. And so for me, having experienced the research and writing in the print days and then transitioning to digital when I went to grad school was a difficult transition for me. One of the biggest changes and things that I thought actually hurt my writing, transitioning digital was the fact that I didn't have a good way to save my research, save my thoughts, and then reorganize those thoughts in preparation for my writing. So back in the print days, you'd have to transcribe everything. You couldn't copy and paste stuff into whatever you were using. It was all kind of like a paper process and you found the sources in the library. But the benefit of that is that at least I was taught to write, jot my notes down on note cards. And then the beauty of that was that when it came to reorganize or really start to plan out your writing and make everything logical and fit together, it was very then easy to reorganize those note cards. You just lay 'em out. I mean, people talk about this all the time. They would just lay them out on their bed or a table reshuffle things around, think about how I want to introduce things, move this there, move this to the end, move this to the front. That was really, the note card was a great piece of technology for reorganization.
Larry:
You're right, you're right.
Wilson:
Now fast forward to digital. And so no one transcribes anything. So I was like, I go into grad school, everyone's like 10 years younger than me, and they're just copying and pasting left and right or leaving browser tabs open to save their information. I'm just like, wow, what are you guys doing? And so no one transcribed anything. And so no cards were like a non, they didn't even exist to these folks.
Larry:
You're aging me, Wilson, you're aging me. Go ahead. It's unbelievable.
Wilson:
But they would copy and paste stuff, and this is, I'm going use air quotes here, "the good process." So you copy and paste stuff into a word processing document and you just kept doing that. And then at the end of the day, you ended up with this huge word processing document, just like a disorganized mess of copy and pasted stuff from all over the internet.
Larry:
Mhm. Mhm.
Wilson:
Then how do you then reorganize that? Just think about that for a second. The word processor is just not designed for your organization. If you wanted to do it, you would have to copy and paste stuff around. I've seen people open two or three other documents and copy and paste stuff into those other documents,
tabbing while they're changing the window and stuff like that. It's really annoying and frustrating to do that, and most people just don't do it. What they do, and we watch students do this, is they'll just start writing. They say, okay, I've internalized all the research I read over the last X amount of time and I'm just going to start writing because it's probably the fastest way to turn this thing in. And when it comes to writing something I think needs to be supported, then I'll try to control F through my document and then find the thing that is closest thing to supporting what I'm trying to say. And then I'll shoehorn that in. And that's not the way you do source-based writing. And so you need to do things like reorganize and synthesize that research, and then you decide I don't want to write about it. And then you start writing from there. So the whole process is a little disjointed because you don't really have a good process for just saving the information and then doing stuff with it. So that was the core piece of PowerNotes. And so that's what high schools are trying to use PowerNotes for.
They're trying to give students a structure because one of the things that we do is we kind of force students to organize. It's like we put 'em, and the faculty member can kind define how constrained this box is, but we kind of put students in a box and we allow them to grab whatever research, but we keep that organized. The students pick the organizational structure or the faculty can do that as well. And then they do all everything in that context. And then when it comes to reorganizing, we bring back digital formats, a digital version of those note cards, so they can easily just move things around to reorganize. So they're in a much better position to start writing. So that's kind of like high school, it's just like college. It's not very different. The use case is pretty much the same.
Larry:
So explain this to me. Wait, I got to ask you this. Okay,
Wilson:
Yeah.
Larry:
Where does AI fit into this? I mean, so far, if I'm hearing you correctly, the students have found the information, they're just having trouble, this is where PowerNotes is so important. This helps them organize it, which is wonderful, by the way. That's wonderful.
Wilson:
Yep.
Larry:
Where's the AI fit in?
Wilson:
Yeah, so that's a great question. It fits in a couple ways. So the first way it fits in is even before the student starts doing research, a lot of students when they're introduced to a new subject have no idea what's going on, especially if it's an academic subject that's not in popular culture.
So the first thing they start doing, what they would normally do is Google or Wikipedia or something like that. That takes time. I mean, I don't think it takes that much time, but I mean, students want to save as much time as they can. So what they've been doing recently is they just go to AI. They either go to ChatGPT or whatever it is, and they just start asking questions because that way, the problem in my mind, and this is another problem with digital, is that search engines have gotten so good, and the internet has gotten so broad. The amount of content you have access to is so huge. Now, when you do a search, you get a gazillion results, and they're all, a lot of them are relevant, and are you going to read them all? That's tough. So AI is there, and AI is, and I'm going to use air quotes here again, "relatively good" at distilling information.
There's caveats to that. And this is something that teachers need to teach, but I'll touch on that later. But they'll go to the AI and ask it questions and then get a general feeling for the subject area. So that's the first thing part of the AI that students can do. And instead of going to ChatGPT, which is what students would have to go today, even faculty members in the spring that we work with, before we had our AI features, they wanted to use AI in the classroom. And so what they would tell their students to do is go to OpenAI, create an account, and then do the AI work, do it in class. We can see what you're doing. And that can be problematic in a number of ways. I mean, it takes up a lot of time in class. There are privacy issues with using OpenAI that schools are very concerned about.
I didn't realize how concerned about they were until we started talking about this. But I mean, one of the things is that when you go to OpenAI, you create an account, they know who OpenAI knows who you are, and they get to keep your data for training their language model. And so that's problematic for schools, for a number of reasons, I think are pretty obvious. And they don't want to do that. But right now they have no choice. So one of the things that we did was we brought the AI into PowerNotes. So instead of going to OpenAI, you just go to PowerNotes, we do not send any user information to OpenAI. So all OpenAI sees from us important we use their APIs is a bunch of prompts coming in from PowerNotes, which is users from all over, from schools, from everywhere.
So they have no idea who they are. And then the great thing that OpenAI did is they have a policy, a privacy policy that's different for individual users versus API users, individual users, as I mentioned before, they get to keep their data for training purposes, their inputs and outputs. They do not get to do that. Or they say they don't do that for API users. They hold their information, their data for 30 days to check for abuse and then they delete it. And so theoretically, you can keep you own your data when you use it through PowerNotes or some other company that goes through Open AI's, APIs versus again, their direct accounts. But the whole point of PowerNotes is that you're doing all this in PowerNotes. And so all your prompts, when you're asking the AI to give you general information and you're asking follow-up questions and you're getting, you're going in a certain direction, we document all that.
And so your faculty can see what's going on, how you're getting the information you're getting. So if they get to a point, and this can happen when you're starting to get into more esoteric areas of the subject matter or more controversial areas, they can provide feedback. This might be wrong, you might want to check it. And then there's ways to check whether or not the AI is giving you the correct information. You can ask it again in a different way or just even asking it multiple times. It will start to give you the more common answer. And another thing, what we found that students struggle with the AI is actually very good at, is giving you search phrases to go and search. So a lot of times students don't know what to search for. Again, this is something that we've gotten feedback from our faculty, which is especially freshmen when they're starting out or high school students. They're not great at searching for non pop culture type things. They need to search specific terms.
Larry:
Yep.
Wilson:
So the AI can give you those things. And we're going to have things like standard prompts that can give you search terms, and then we can even link PowerNotes can even link into and search school library databases because library search engines have their own APIs. And we connect with them.
Larry:
I got to ask you this, Wilson, as someone is writing a paper and whatever it might be, organic chemistry or some subject within, PowerNotes knows what the topic is, okay, for this particular person is PowerNotes, which is an ethereal entity. Are they constantly searching the web to look for new research on that topic and throwing it to the user and saying, Hey, I just found this. You didn't see this, I just found this. Does it work like that? I'm just curious.
Wilson:
With the AI, it can. So one of our AI features is something we call Discovery, and it's on the research side of PowerNotes. So part of PowerNotes is there to help you, as I mentioned earlier, grab things that you're viewing in your browser and save them and organize it for you. So one of our pieces of AI is called Discovery, and it's on that front end browser extension. And what it does is for any given article that you're on, you can hit a button and then we will send that article to the AI or whatever AI the school chooses, and it will send back 3 things.
Larry:
Wow.
Wilson:
A summary. The ChatGPT is actually pretty good at summarizing things. So it'll send back a summary. The second thing is what you're talking about. So it'll send back a list of common or related, but slightly different searches based on so related search topics based on the content of the article. So the AI will create those
Larry:
Yeah.
Wilson:
and we'll send them back. And then, so if this article isn't exactly on point, you'll see this list of AI generated searches that you're like, oh, this one's much closer to what I want. You can click on it and then we'll actually search that stuff either in your library or on Google, and then the search results will be right there. So you just click right into it. So I think that's sort of what you're talking about. But again,
Larry:
It is exactly what I'm talking about.
Wilson:
that's gonna be AI generated.
Larry:
Then lemme ask this. Go ahead. This always a funny question. I got to ask you this. Okay. And I'm going to ask you with a smile on my face. What's the downside? What's the downside of all this? PowerNotes? What's the downside? I'll give you a little hint. I don't see much of a downside. Okay, tell there's the downside. What's the downside?
Wilson:
It depends on how you define downside. So for me, the hardest part about this is to get faculty and instructors to change. And so this is the hard part. And so the way that we kind of do things is we are a process focused product. So we want you to be able to teach the process. The process is typically where the learning happens, but historically, instructors and educators assess the output. So there's a difference between the process and the output.
Larry:
Agreed.
Wilson:
The output is a paper and it's supposed to demonstrate what you learn during the process, which is great. And so it's something that's relatively easy to assess because it's X pages, it's contained, and it's what you have visibility into. The students turn that in. Historically, as I mentioned earlier, the faculty haven't had access to the process.
Larry:
That's right.
Wilson:
So they couldn't even assess it if they wanted to. Now that was fine. And a lot of faculty members before AI came out liked us because they understood that, hey, everything happens during the process. And so if I have visibility into the process, then that gives me an advantage and more levers to pull in terms of teaching my students. And that's great. That was okay. And we grew organically and people got it, but changing their teaching style or method or what they assessed is very difficult until AI came along. And so when AI came along, it really said, Hey, this is the fastest, easiest, cheapest way for students to just fake the output. So the AI fakes output, it will just create the output for you with a click of a button or not a click of button, but it's not that much work.
Larry:
And I got to tell you, you keep saying this is interesting, Wilson, you keep saying it's about the students. It's about the students. It's about the students. But professors who can be disorganized as the old shuffled used to be in the movies, the goofy absent-minded professor. But that's not the way professors are anymore. That's a stereotype. But my point is PowerNotes is also good for professors and for everybody, I might add, because they are the ones responsible for organizing that subject into a teachable thing, into a teachable moment. And they have to do that same research. They have to stay ahead of the game too. And if you can find a process, and everybody these days, and Wilson, I got to say, everybody in education will tell you, it all boils down to time. I don't have the time to do it.
Wilson:
Right.
Larry:
If you can find somebody, some thing, if I may, PowerNotes that it takes over that process and is constantly looking for you and helping you develop the process that again, leads to the output, be it in the form of a paper, be it in the form of lecture or whatever. That's fantastic. It's organization. And most people are not very good at that. I might add. Which people just are not. So this is an organizational tool and we're damn fools. You and I we're brilliant, but everybody else, okay, are damn fools, if they don't understand it, I think everybody does. AI is not going to be put back into the bottle. Okay, it's here. It's here.
Wilson:
Yep.
Larry:
Alright. And it makes sense to use it. We got to be very careful with it as you well know, and as everybody listen, if you don't believe me, watch Terminator three. Did you see that? Wilson? Watch Terminators. Just always, whenever you're in a good mood, whenever you're in that dangerous mood, watch Terminator three. And the point is, we've got to use this and use it well and use it right. And a tool like this built, I have to say from experience, okay, can make all the difference in the world. It's going to make life a lot easier. And I have to ask you this people, we did not talk about this. I read your bio a little bit. You were an electrical engineer, right?
Wilson:
Yes, that's right.
Larry:
And then you went to law school where you figured all this out, right? That's right. Okay. So how come, how'd you get into figuring all this out? That's an amazing story right there.
Wilson:
I mean, for me, it was the reason why.
Larry:
I know why but how did you do it?
Wilson:
I mean, because of my engineering background during law school, when I was frustrated with the digital research and writing, I was kind of building PowerNotes in my head, pieces of technology that I knew existed or were available, that if you put them together in the right way, you could make the process a lot easier, a lot more streamlined, a lot less frustrating. So that was kind of happening throughout law school. When I practiced law for a couple of years, the problem got worse. There was more complex complexity in my assignments..
Larry:
Interesting.
Wilson:
Things got harder, not easier. And so I worked at the firm, pay off my loans, and then once I paid them off, I left and started this company because Are
Larry:
Are you still in Chicago?
Wilson:
Yeah.
Larry:
Where I used to live there. I lived in Rogers Park, right south of Evanston.
Wilson:
We're in West Loop. We're in West Loop. That's where the company is. We're right in Greektown.
Wilson:
I don't know if you're familiar with that area.
Larry:
Of course I'm familiar with it. Opa! I lived there a long time. That's great. Right. So look what you've done. I mean, it's really just amazing and I think teachers have to understand this. Okay. And how good it is. Okay. And I don't know if you're, how familiar you are with the education world. Have you ever heard of the conference called ISTE? I S T E?
Wilson:
Yeah. Yep.
Larry:
Okay, good.
Larry:
How long has the company been around? What I ask you that I looked, the company been around,
Wilson:
This product has been around since 2017.
Larry:
Oh, okay. So have you been to Isti and shown the product to people?
Wilson:
Oh yeah.
Larry:
K 12.
Wilson:
We were there this year. We've been there. I mean, I think we weren't there during the pandemic. It didn't exist. Maybe it was online.
Larry:
Yeah, I know.
Wilson:
But we started going to ISTE in probably 20 18, 20 19, somewhere in there.
Larry:
And then it skipped again. So what's the reaction? That's a K 12 show, if I may.
Wilson:
That's right.
Larry:
Technology and education, but it's pre-K 12. Okay. What's the reaction of the educators when they see this?
Wilson:
I mean, ISTE is a pretty self-selecting crowd. They're pretty tech savvy, so they
usually get a lot of value. I mean, they usually really like the product. We give it away for free for folks that come to us at ISTE. So anyone, any teacher in K 12 that wants to use PowerNotes for free, we will give them access at ISTE. Again, we don't do a lot of marketing to K 12, but we want them to try our tools. I think at some point we're going to really start making a push into K through 12, as I mentioned, when we do have students using it down in fourth grade. And that's funny because those are typically the children of professors at our schools.
Larry:
Oh how interesting.
Wilson:
That tell their students' teachers about PowerNotes.
Larry:
I love it.
Wilson:
And it's usually because the students are struggling with some sort of executive functioning issue, keeping themselves organized in the structured environment when it comes to finding and recording information. They're not writing papers at that age, but they are finding information on the internet and they are saving it, and they're trying to structure it in some way, and some really struggle with that. And so PowerNotes basically puts them, again, on rails inside guardrails and helps them structure things. Because the whole nature of putting things into PowerNotes is to structure things. And so that really helps their children. And so that's something that we're really excited about. AgAIn, we haven't made a big push there because we just don't have the resource right now, but that's probably something we're going to be doing if not late this year then, which is already late this year. Well,
Larry:
That's wonderful. Maybe we can help you with that. And I hope this podcast helps to get the word out a little bit. Okay. Because this is important stuff and every step of the way is extremely important. We got to go. But Wilson, thank you. This was just great, and I got everything linked up here. Okay. One site folks, as you're listening, so Wilson, thanks a million, and give my regards to Chicago. You'll have some AIdas. Think of me over in Greektown. Okay?
Wilson:
Alright. All right. Thank you, Larry.
Larry:
Okay buddy.
Wilson:
Thanks for having me.
Larry:
Thank you.
Wilson:
Take care.
Larry:
You're welcome. Bye-bye.
Wilson:
Alright, bye
Larry:
Bye Wilson. To everybody, president and founder, I didn't know who was in Chicago of PowerNotes and check it all out. It's all linked up here. It's interesting stuff, but when you start really putting it all together, it's unbelievable. Okay, this is where we're going. Okay. It has to happen. We're going to archive over at ace-ed.org, and everything we do over there is free. So go over and see for yourself. I'm Larry Jacobs. Thanks for listening. Thank you, Wilson.
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